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Time English Language 2 Action
00:03
Simone Stolzoff: There was a study
00:05
that was done in the University College London,
00:07
where researchers split participants into two groups,
00:11
and in one group they were given an100-percent chance
00:15
of receiving a really painful electric shock.
00:19
And then the other group,
00:20
they were given a 50-percent chance of receiving a painful electric shock.
00:25
And fascinatingly, they found that people in the second group,
00:29
people who had a 50-percent chance,
00:31
were far more anxious and stressed
00:33
than people in the 100-percent chance group.
00:36
So somehow, we would rather a certain bad thing happen to us
00:40
than have to deal with the ambiguity of not being sure.
00:44
I'm curious, from your perspective,
00:46
what are the implications of a study like this?
00:48
What does it say about our societal
00:50
or our individual ability to navigate what we don't know?
00:54
Maya Shankar: Yeah, I mean, I think
00:56
it makes so much sense that we as humans, you know,
00:59
evolved to be this way.
01:01
It's very helpful for us to be prediction machines
01:05
that are constantly trying to anticipate future risks
01:07
and trying to get ahead of them and solve for the future.
01:10
The downside to that is that there are lots of changes
01:13
that are truly outside of our control,
01:15
and no amount of planning will rescue us from those situations.
01:19
And in those moments, our brains can kind of short-circuit.
01:22
I definitely feel like that study describes me to a tee.
01:27
I would rather know how the story ends.
01:30
I would rather have clarity on the outcome.
01:33
I was just actually reading a book for an upcoming podcast interview
01:36
on "A Slight Change of Plans."
01:37
And this woman cited a study.
01:39
She's a physician.
01:42
And she was talking about how people
01:46
are way more stressed during that intervening period
01:49
when they're not sure what the medical result is
01:52
when they're waiting on a test result
01:54
than they are when they actually find out what the disease is.
01:57
And that was really interesting to me
01:59
because when I reflect back on my life
02:01
at the moments when I felt the most deeply anxious,
02:04
the most unsure, my life and my --
02:07
and when my well-being has been most compromised,
02:10
it is in those periods where there is some uncertainty.
02:14
And I wonder if it's because we --
02:18
because we lack that agency in those moments,
02:20
we're just grasping to try to figure out
02:23
how we might be able to change the situation.
02:25
And in moments of uncertainty,
02:27
we have the illusion that our involvement could actually move the needle.
02:31
But after we've received the actual information,
02:34
it feels more set in stone.
02:36
SS: I think this is very relatable
02:38
for anyone who is dealing with maybe professional uncertainty
02:42
or uncertainty about what decisions they want to make
02:46
about their future lives.
02:47
I think we can think about this from an evolutionary perspective.
02:50
So if you imagine an ancestor of ours in the jungle,
02:54
if they hear a rustle in the bushes
02:56
and they're not sure the source of that noise,
02:58
that uncertainty could potentially be fatal.
03:01
And so our brains are wired to feel safe and secure
03:06
when we are certain,
03:08
and to feel incredibly uncomfortable when we are uncertain.
03:12
And in general, this is a survival instinct.
03:15
It can steer us well.
03:16
It can incentivize us to, say,
03:18
put on a seat belt before we enter a car ride.
03:21
There's been similar studies for breast cancer patients
03:24
who have found that the period between getting a biopsy
03:27
and getting the diagnosis
03:29
is often the hardest part of the entire process,
03:31
harder than chemo or surgery.
03:34
Because once we know what we're dealing with,
03:36
then we know where to direct our energy.
03:38
But before we have that certainty, we can't necessarily plan.
03:43
We can't necessarily know where we should be spending our resources.
03:47
But I think there's also a cost to this discomfort we have with uncertainty,
03:51
which is that we might close our minds off to new possibilities.
03:56
I think we all probably have a friend who's maybe in a job
03:59
or in a relationship that they know isn't quite working for them,
04:03
but they're so uncomfortable with the uncertainty of leaving
04:08
that they sort of grit their teeth
04:10
and just maintain the status quo.
04:12
And in my mind, that is sort of the main downside
04:16
of our intolerance of uncertainty.
04:18
It's that when we are certain it has a narrowing effect,
04:21
it closes our minds
04:22
when we think we know exactly who's going to win the election
04:25
or exactly how the market is going to react in the future.
04:29
But when we're able to maintain a state of not knowing,
04:32
we're able to see the possibilities
04:34
that may be sitting on the other side of our discomfort.
04:38
There's one other element to this
04:40
that I think you are particularly primed to speak on,
04:43
which is the relationship between identity and uncertainty
04:46
or identity and change.
04:48
What do you think is so hard about change when it comes to our self-conception?
04:54
MS: Yeah, it's so interesting.
04:55
There was a moment in hosting "A Slight Change of Plans"
04:58
where, I remember I was going on a walk,
05:00
and I realized for the first time,
05:02
“Oh my God, this is not even really a show about change --
05:06
It’s a show about identity.”
05:08
And that insight was born from the fact
05:11
that so many of the stories I was hearing
05:13
revealed that one of the biggest reasons why change is so scary
05:17
is because it can threaten our self-identity
05:22
in these really potent ways that are very uncomfortable.
05:25
Now let's think about self-identity for a moment.
05:28
It's very helpful for us to carry them, to have these identities,
05:31
these labels, these roles we give ourselves, right?
05:34
If I identify, for example, as an athlete --
05:37
it's funny I've chosen that because I so don't identify as an athlete.
05:40
That's actually the last thing I'm qualified to identify as.
05:43
But while we're in this magical world together on a Thursday,
05:47
let's just pretend that I'm an athlete.
05:50
It gives me an immediate feeling of camaraderie with my fellow athletes.
05:55
So I feel a sense of community and group membership.